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" i shouldn’t have to memorize commands"
the up arrow:
GUI is a generic swiss army knife. It’s easy to introduce to someone, and it has a whole array of tools ready for use. However, each of those tools is only half-decent at its job at best, and all of the tools are unwieldy. The manual is included, but it mostly tells you how to do things that are pretty obvious.
CLI is a toolbox full of quality tools and gadgets. Most people who open the box for the first time don’t even know which tools they’re looking for. In addition, each tool has a set of instructions that must be followed to a T. Those who know how to use the tools can get things done super quickly, but those who don’t know will inevitably cause some problems. Oh, but the high-detail manuals for all the tools are in the side compartment of the toolbox too.
The only thing worse than reading documentation/tutorials about how to do things in GUIs is writing documentation about how to do things in GUIs. It’s just screenshot after screenshot. And following it is like playing a ScummVM game, only less fun and lots more alt+tabbing.
I use Linux and I prefer GUIs. I’m the kind of person that would rather open a filemanager as superuser and drag and drop system files than type commands and addresses. I hope you hax0rs won’t forget that we mere mortals exist too and you’ll make GUIs for us 🙏🙏🙏
That’s it, I need to hook up a controller to my PC so I can open Htop with a button press
Perception: “the CLI is scary and hard to use” Reality: “computer, install gimp” “yessir, that’ll be 141MB, is that okay?”
That didn’t work. I got
computer: Command not found
You gotta do it like this:
That is an oversimplification and you know it. Why is it so hard for CLI people to be honest?
Installing software on the command line is often a nightmare, requiring multiple commands and throwing error messages that you can only find mention of in one unresolved thread on some obscure forum somewhere.
Plus, there are so many different commands that you have other CLI users saying that they need to pull up reference tools to remember how to do different actions. I have only ever needed to that once or twice ever for GUIs.
Get real.
sudo zypper install programname
sudo zypper remove programname
or
sudo flatpak install programname
sudo flatpak uninstall programname
Doesn’t get more complicated than that.
And for updates
sudo zypper refresh
sudo zypper update
sudo flatpak update
Much faster than opening a GUI, and it didn’t take long for me to remember the commands.
Why is it so hard for CLI people to be honest?
Interesting if unseemly glimpse into your psyche.
And into yours. Do you think the “reality” they’re presenting is honest?
Even if they’re not lying, they’re definitely not telling the truth.
… and you believe that it’s because they are a “CLI person” that they are unable to be honest. Because that’s a thing that a sane person would say.
Uhhh, maybe if we are talking about back in like 2001?
I literally manage a fleet of linux end user machines and i can’t remember the last time installing software was more than just "pacman -Syu <nameofprogram> (yes they run arch BTW)
Why are anti cli people so dishonest about how hard it is? Now, if you are trying to get involved in like machine learning or something then yes that’s an absolute nightmare of errors and installing python packages and other nonsense but that’s true no matter what platform you’re on and whether you have a GUI or not. Even all the fancy gui installers for stuff like stable diffusion are a constant nightmares of I’m not working because fuck you that’s not unique to cli
I’m talking about installing ordinary programs via the CLI in the 2020s. I have had loads of complicated installs for software (no LLMs) just for personal use in the last 5 years. I’ve heard the same story from other people who’ve switched to Linux.
I think what’s happening is that people who insist that the CLI is easy just don’t tend to run into the problems I’m talking about, whereas for CLI haters it’s the norm.
I genuinely do not understand how you could run into issues with a basic program unless you’re attempting to install from source code or something. Any basiclinic system should have a package manager and you literally just say install this and it just goes.
The only time that I would have the chance to hit the kind of problems you described or ever seen anyone hit those problems is when installing directly from a repository on GitHub, straight from Source code, or attempting to use a downloaded dpkg or random wget line from reddit instead of just using the package manager
Installing software on the command line is often a nightmare
In my experience, installers are often a nightmare.
For me, GUI vs CLI have about the same failure rate (for their operating system).
But I appreciate that the CLI version gives me a message I can search for instead of a “fuck you buddy” pop up box with an “ok” button.
Edit: There’s one case where I have a much harder time with CLI installs - when there’s only a CLI “installer” available. I don’t blame the CLI for that, I blame the person who shares seven CLI commands instead of writing an installer.
Nah I don’t know it, cause that’s not been my experience. But admittedly my experience is also pretty limited so maybe I’ve just yet to run into this myself. I’m just a general use case desktop PC user not doing anything particularly technical.
That’s fair enough, and sorry for jumping to accusing you of dishonesty. To be honest I’m totally shocked that you and so many others in this thread have had such an easy time installing software through the CLI. I have had loads of trouble for the same user case as you, to the extent that I’ve had to completely give up on installing a variety of programs that didn’t have GUI installers available.
Our experiences are totally opposite, so it makes sense that we have opposite stances on the CLI.
How were you installing from the command line? Like, what commands were you using?
Are there people who are mad at other people for using the terminal? Is this really a thing that exists?
It’s not that they are mad others use CLI, it’s that they’re mad that Linux devs regularly stop creating P&CI features, instead opting for CLI with no P&CI equivalent action.
It’s kind of obvious why - CLI is already very flexible right out of the box, and it takes much less work to add functionality within CLI rather than creating it for the P&CI.
At the same time, I understand the P&CI folk’s frustration, since one of biggest obstacles to getting more people on Linux is the lack of P&CI solutions, and the fact that many actions on Linux are explained solely via CLI.
CLI folks have invested the time to use terminals effectively and view overuse of the P&CI as beneath them, and P&CI folks have no interest in dumping time into learning CLI to do something they could do on Windows with P&CI.
they’re mad that Linux devs regularly stop creating P&CI features, instead opting for CLI with no P&CI equivalent action.
I’ve never seen this?
It’s typically a completely different developer who creates the CLI first, and then one of us adds a P&C after.
So if something is brand new, sure there might be no P&C, yet.
I promise There’s no conspiracy to not have nice things. Haha.
I was specifically trying to not sound conspiratorial. I’m pointing out that it’s a matter of having learned a paradigm vs having to learn a new paradigm.
Devs have already gotten used to CLI and very rarely make full P&CI suites because of it. Even if the original Dev only did CLI for the app and someone came back and made a P&CI for that app, those P&CI interfaces are still fairly barebones. This is both a mix of devs knowing how good CLI can be and because it’s all open source volunteer work.
Layman users of P&CI-focused DEs actively avoid CLI so they don’t have to learn it. This means that using most Linux apps are something to be avoided for most Windows users, making the OS base mostly unusable for them.
To be clear, when I am talking about P&CI-focused DEs, like windows and iOS, I mean that if you cannot perform an action with the P&CI, then that action essentially does not exist for the average user. Contrast that with Linux DEs, where it’s quite common to have to directly edit configs or use the CLI to perform various actions.
As a veteran user, CLI does not bother me. I do understand the frustration of those who want some Linux DEs to become as default as Windows and iOS, because lack of P&CI does damage that effort.
This is not every app in Linux obvi, but the ones that are best at making sure the P&CI is full-flddged, are the apps that develop for windows and iOS as well as Linux - Blender, LibreOffice, Logseq, Godot, etc. The most common offenders are the utility apps, such as those that handle drivers, sound systems, DE functions, etc.
This means that using most Linux apps are something to be avoided for most Windows users, making the OS base mostly unusable for them.
I take your point. And this was very much the case for a long time.
But it’s worth pointing out that Gnome and KDE are both done, now.
I haven’t been forced to reach for command line to change something - anything - on either of my last couple of Linux installs.
Edit: I almost didn’t notice, but it feels worth celebrating and raising awareness.
There are definitely people who think it is reasonable to memorize button locations and 10 levels of menus in GUI programs but would rather go into cardiac arrest than use something like
program --option input-file output-file.thing with gui is you don’t need to memorize button locations and menus. If you do it’s poor layout. Good gui lets you find things you didn’t know you were looking for intuitively, without external resources or manual. CLI requires you to know what exactly you are doing and is impossible to use without external resources. Nothing against terminal but unless you know what you are doing and every command required to complete that action, it’s ass. If gui was so bad and cli was so good, guis would not be used by anyone.
I mean you dont go around copy pasting device ids and running commands for 20 minutes to connect your device through terminal when it is done with 2 clicks in the gui even by someone who has never used a pc before.
thing with terminal is you don’t need to memorize commands, syntax and options. If you do it’s poor design. Good code lets you find things you didn’t know you were looking for intuitively, without external resources or manual. Gui requires you to know what exactly you are doing and is impossible to use without external resources. Nothing against gui but unless you know what you are doing and every click required to complete that action, it’s ass. If term was so bad and gui was so good, terminals would not be used by anyone.
I mean you dont go around copy pasting device ids and running buttons for 20 minutes to connect your device through gui when it is done with 2 commands in the term even by someone who has never used a pc before.
Ftfy buddy
Okay then how do I mount my drive through terminal and set it to automount every time and change it’s name to appear as “disk 3” everywhere?
man genfstab
genfstab whateveroptionsyouwant
Now give me all the X and Y coordinates of where i would click on my QHD screen for your example in gui plz
Lol, meme’s backwards
CLI evangelists try to shit on GUI constantly, as though it makes them better at computers. It doesn’t, kids
Can see it in this very thread
Lol no. Many posts in this community recently making fun of gimp. Do you see anyone in the comments going WELL ACTUALLY IF YOU JUST USE IMAGEMAGICK? No. Plenty of things to complain about in the big DE’s like KDE and Gnome. But do you see people saying “just use tty”? Also no. Meanwhile you mention terminal once and you get at least two randos going on about how ThIs Is WhY LiNuX IsNt ReAdY. The meme is not backwards, your perception of reality is.
Many posts in this community recently making fun of gimp. Do you see anyone in the comments going WELL ACTUALLY IF YOU JUST USE IMAGEMAGICK? No.
You really don’t see why people would suggest using other GUI alternatives for image manipulation? image manipulation?
Plenty of things to complain about in the big DE’s like KDE and Gnome. But do you see people saying “just use tty”? Also no
“People don’t recommend entirely dropping GUI over one or two GUI issues!” Shocker, wow. They do condescendingly say 'just go into terminal and do x,y,z" though, like I said
But that’s what you’re doing too. Making the meme the correct way round.
Nope, I encourage people to learn CLI but to also use GUI if it does what they need it to. The insult was only to people who think they’re superior for using CLI cuz that’s a silly stance
Just laughing at the meme being backwards from my own personal experience
