The problem here is that all of your evidence thus far is “it’s clearly xyz.” Everyone here is fully aware that two things can be true at once, that one country being bad doesn’t mean others cannot be, etc. etc. My point here is that the DPRK is the single most propagandized against country on the planet, and that it takes an extraordinary level of effort for the average English speaker to get an accurate idea of what it’s like, sifting through all of the bullshit. That’s why I left you with some resourced you could check out.
“It’s clearly xyz” is not a point, and continuing to present only that as evidence supporting your claims does wonders for legitimizing those of us who can actually bring sources. From Professor Roland Boer’s Socialism in Power: On the History and Theory of Socialist Governance:
The DPRK’s electoral democracy relates primarily to the people’s assemblies, along with local state organs, assemblies, and committees. Every eligible citizen may stand for election, so much so that independent candidates are regularly elected to the people’s assemblies and may even be elected to be the speaker or chair. The history of the DPRK has many such examples. I think here of Ryu Mi Yong (1921–2016), who moved from south to north in 1986 so as to take up her role as chair of the Chondoist Chongu Party (The Party of the Young Friends of the Heavenly Way, formed in 1946). She was elected to the Supreme People’s Assembly and became a member of the Standing Committee (then called the Presidium). Other examples include Gang Ryang Uk, a Presbyterian minister who was a leader of the Korean Christian Federation (a Protestant organisation) and served as vice president of the DPRK from 1972 until his death in 1982, as well as Kim Chang Jun, who was an ordained Methodist minister and became vice-chair of the Supreme People’s Assembly (Ryu 2006, 673). Both Gang and Kim were buried at the Patriots’ Cemetery.
How do elections to all of the various bodies of governance work? Elections are universal and use secret ballots, and are—notably—direct. To my knowledge, the DPRK is the only socialist country that has implemented direct elections at all levels. Neither the Soviet Union (in its time) nor China have embraced a complete system of direct elections, preferring—and here I speak of China—to have direct elections at the lower levels of the people’s congresses, and indirect elections to the higher levels.
As for candidates, it may initially seem as though the DPRK follows the Soviet Union’s approach in having a single candidate for each elected position. This is indeed the case for the final process of voting, but there is also a distinct difference: candidates are selected through a robust process in the Democratic Front for the Reunification of the Fatherland. As mentioned earlier, the struggle against Japanese imperialism and liberation of the whole peninsula drew together many organisations, and it is these that came to form the later Democratic Front. The Front was formed on 25 July, 1949 (Kim Il Sung 1949), and today includes the three political parties, and a range of mass organisations from the unions, youth, women, children, agricultural workers, journalism, literature and arts, and Koreans in Japan (Chongryon). Notably, it also includes representation from the Korean Christian Federation (Protestant), Korean Catholic Federation, and the Korean Buddhist Federation. All of these mass organisations make up the Democratic Front, and it is this organisation that proposes candidates. In many respects, this is where the multi-candidate dimension of elections comes to the fore. Here candidates are nominated for consideration from all of the mass organisations represented. Their suitability and merit for the potential nomination is debated and discussed at many mass meetings, and only then is the final candidate nominated for elections to the SPA. Now we can see why candidates from the Chondoist movement, as well as from the Christian churches, have been and can be elected to the SPA and indeed the local assemblies.
To sum up the electoral process, we may see it in terms of a dialectical both-and: multi-candidate elections take place in the Democratic Front, which engages in extensive consideration of suitable candidates; single candidate elections take place for the people’s assemblies. It goes without saying that in a non-antagonistic system of class and group interaction, the criterion for election is merit and political suitability
As for the bodies of governance, there is a similar continuity and discontinuity compared with other socialist countries. Unlike the Soviet Union, there is a unicameral Supreme People’s Assembly, which is the highest authority in terms of laws, regulations, the constitution, and all leadership roles. The SPA is also responsible for the national economic plan, the country’s budget, and foreign policy directions (Han 2016, 47–48). At the same time, the Democratic Front for the Reunification of the Fatherland has an analogous function to a second organ of governance. This is a uniquely Korean approach to the question of a second organ of governance. While not an organ of governance as such, it plays a direct role in electoral democracy (see above), as well as the all-important manifestation of consultative democracy (see below). A further reason for this unique role of the Democratic Front may be adduced: while the Soviet Union and China see the second body or organ as representative of all minority nationalities and relevant groups, the absence of minority nationalities in a much smaller Korea means that such a form of representation is not needed.
I highly recommend the book, it helps shed light on some often misunderstood mechanisms in socialist democracy. I am not playing into “us vs. them” in general, I specifically take the side of the proletariat against the bourgeoisie, of the indigenous against the colonizer.
There are so many sources. Look at wiki. When a family runs a country you can clearly see. If there was some ambiguity on who is running the country you would have a point. But that’s not the case it’s run by the family, what do you call a country that is run by a Familial dynasty where the guy is known as the “Supreme leader”?
The Kim family does have outsized influence, but the DPRK is not a hereditary monarchy. For example, the position of President, held by Kim Il-Sung, was abolished and split into multiple positions upon his death. This is why he is remembered as the “Eternal President.” As such, both Kim Jong-Il and Kim Jong-Un have held different positions. Both have held high positions, for example Kim Jong-Il had the title of General Secretary of the Worker’s Party of Korea, a position held by Kim Jong-Un presently. However, this is not the whole story.
The DPRK has a much more distributed level of power, and the Kim family is both widely supported due to its influence, and yet is not the undisputed top-dog, so to speak. What’s more, the Kim family is so venerated precisely because the legacy of Kim Il-Sung and Kim Jong-Il is lived memory, imagine if Lenin had survived and raised his children as successors. It would be no wonder that the soviets would have elected his children, but it would not be a monarchy either.
Finally, class. Class is not a level of material wealth, but a relation to production and distribution. The DPRK is overwhelmingly publicly owned and planned, administration is not a distinct class in and of itself but a subset of broader classes, same with intellectuals. What determines class is based on that key aspect, the Kim family does not own capital but instead recieves wages from the state. Kim Jong-Un is largely used as a symbol, one that is democratically elected and directly trained by his father for the position.
Yes, there are indeed a lot of people saying what you’ve claimed, and I very clearly explained why there is so much disinformation about the DPRK 2 comments above. I also explained how this disinformation works. Despite all of this, you’re still repeating the method of “it’s clearly xyz?” How unseriously do you take investigation into topics like this, do you even care at all? Or is this just an outlet for you? If you claim to be on the side of the people, then you owe it to yourself to take investigation and study seriously, rather than passively repeat disinformation even when shown hard evidence to the contrary.
Yes I do, and I do, but I also like minimizing the bias of sources. Of course you would hold good relationships with people who support you specifically becuase they want to throw a wrench in other countries, re the black panthers. If I hated the us, and i was a country I would absolutely fund and support organizations that were a thorn in the side of the country I hate, it is logical. The “evidence” you’re providing is literally just bias in favour of. There is no critique from you regarding the ruling class, incessant defense of oppressors, just with a different flavour is still defending oppressors
The Black Panther Party was not the only group to maintain ties with the DPRK. Cuba was already allied with the DPRK and has remained extremely close, and the DPRK aided numerous African liberation movements Castro had this to say of Kim Il-Sung:
Comrade Kim Il Sung, our closest brother and friend, has shown deep concern for us. He is a model of genuine internationalist.
He was the first to provide Cuba with unstinting political and material support when it was in the most difficult situation. We will never forget the care he shows for the Cuban people.
Those who met you Comrade Kim Il Sung expressed their feelings of respect and admiration for you, saying that you are so modest, sentimental, passionate and kind. Every time I heard them, I could not repress my urge to visit your country to see you. You were already fighting against the Japanese imperialists when I was born. So I took it as my due obligation to visit you.
You keep framing this as purely being self-interest, with no actual care for the people. To that I ask, why is it that these movements all happened to be on the side of justice? Why is it that the DPRK continued to retain ties with some of the most socially progressive countries on the planet, and enmeshed itself with liberation movements globally, if it was only concerned with “Realpolitik?” Even if we all call it self-interest, it doesn’t change the fact that this self-interest was in aiding liberation!
Regarding my sources being “bias,” again, this is nonsense. I am giving you hard evidence explaining exactly how the DPRK works, why it is so propagandized against, and how this propaganda works. I am always opposed to the bourgeoisie, I clearly critique capitalism and support socialism. Simply stating that socialist states are “oppressors, just with a different flavour” is the peak of ignorance when it comes to the massive gains made by the working classes once they take control of the state and can run society in their own interests.
I just gave you several well-sourced comments giving an approachable introduction to the systemic demonization of the DPRK, as well as a brief intro on how the electoral system works, and numerous articles, books, and documentaries to choose from, including Wikipedia. How on Earth could I do better for you? Stoop to your level and just say “you’re clearly wrong?”
If I were a conspiratorial onlooker, I’d suspect you of being one of my alts to legitimize what I’m saying here.
Of course I’m not going to get it, your only source was effectively “trust me bro” in the face of hard evidence and materialist analysis from multiple people. All you’ve made clear is that it’s the “tankies” that actually seem to know what we are talking about. Have fun back at MeanwhileOnGrad, where bigots stalk leftist accounts for screengrabs.
The problem here is that all of your evidence thus far is “it’s clearly xyz.” Everyone here is fully aware that two things can be true at once, that one country being bad doesn’t mean others cannot be, etc. etc. My point here is that the DPRK is the single most propagandized against country on the planet, and that it takes an extraordinary level of effort for the average English speaker to get an accurate idea of what it’s like, sifting through all of the bullshit. That’s why I left you with some resourced you could check out.
“It’s clearly xyz” is not a point, and continuing to present only that as evidence supporting your claims does wonders for legitimizing those of us who can actually bring sources. From Professor Roland Boer’s Socialism in Power: On the History and Theory of Socialist Governance:
I highly recommend the book, it helps shed light on some often misunderstood mechanisms in socialist democracy. I am not playing into “us vs. them” in general, I specifically take the side of the proletariat against the bourgeoisie, of the indigenous against the colonizer.
There are so many sources. Look at wiki. When a family runs a country you can clearly see. If there was some ambiguity on who is running the country you would have a point. But that’s not the case it’s run by the family, what do you call a country that is run by a Familial dynasty where the guy is known as the “Supreme leader”?
The Kim family does have outsized influence, but the DPRK is not a hereditary monarchy. For example, the position of President, held by Kim Il-Sung, was abolished and split into multiple positions upon his death. This is why he is remembered as the “Eternal President.” As such, both Kim Jong-Il and Kim Jong-Un have held different positions. Both have held high positions, for example Kim Jong-Il had the title of General Secretary of the Worker’s Party of Korea, a position held by Kim Jong-Un presently. However, this is not the whole story.
The DPRK has a much more distributed level of power, and the Kim family is both widely supported due to its influence, and yet is not the undisputed top-dog, so to speak. What’s more, the Kim family is so venerated precisely because the legacy of Kim Il-Sung and Kim Jong-Il is lived memory, imagine if Lenin had survived and raised his children as successors. It would be no wonder that the soviets would have elected his children, but it would not be a monarchy either.
Finally, class. Class is not a level of material wealth, but a relation to production and distribution. The DPRK is overwhelmingly publicly owned and planned, administration is not a distinct class in and of itself but a subset of broader classes, same with intellectuals. What determines class is based on that key aspect, the Kim family does not own capital but instead recieves wages from the state. Kim Jong-Un is largely used as a symbol, one that is democratically elected and directly trained by his father for the position.
This is why it’s important to actually study the real systems at play, rather than coast on pre-formed opinions drilled into us about the DPRK from western media. The Black Panther Party maintained good relations with the DPRK, visiting it and teaching Juche to Americans.
Yes, there are indeed a lot of people saying what you’ve claimed, and I very clearly explained why there is so much disinformation about the DPRK 2 comments above. I also explained how this disinformation works. Despite all of this, you’re still repeating the method of “it’s clearly xyz?” How unseriously do you take investigation into topics like this, do you even care at all? Or is this just an outlet for you? If you claim to be on the side of the people, then you owe it to yourself to take investigation and study seriously, rather than passively repeat disinformation even when shown hard evidence to the contrary.
Yes I do, and I do, but I also like minimizing the bias of sources. Of course you would hold good relationships with people who support you specifically becuase they want to throw a wrench in other countries, re the black panthers. If I hated the us, and i was a country I would absolutely fund and support organizations that were a thorn in the side of the country I hate, it is logical. The “evidence” you’re providing is literally just bias in favour of. There is no critique from you regarding the ruling class, incessant defense of oppressors, just with a different flavour is still defending oppressors
This is, again, nonsense. Do better.
The Black Panther Party was not the only group to maintain ties with the DPRK. Cuba was already allied with the DPRK and has remained extremely close, and the DPRK aided numerous African liberation movements Castro had this to say of Kim Il-Sung:
You keep framing this as purely being self-interest, with no actual care for the people. To that I ask, why is it that these movements all happened to be on the side of justice? Why is it that the DPRK continued to retain ties with some of the most socially progressive countries on the planet, and enmeshed itself with liberation movements globally, if it was only concerned with “Realpolitik?” Even if we all call it self-interest, it doesn’t change the fact that this self-interest was in aiding liberation!
Regarding my sources being “bias,” again, this is nonsense. I am giving you hard evidence explaining exactly how the DPRK works, why it is so propagandized against, and how this propaganda works. I am always opposed to the bourgeoisie, I clearly critique capitalism and support socialism. Simply stating that socialist states are “oppressors, just with a different flavour” is the peak of ignorance when it comes to the massive gains made by the working classes once they take control of the state and can run society in their own interests.
Do better.
After you
I just gave you several well-sourced comments giving an approachable introduction to the systemic demonization of the DPRK, as well as a brief intro on how the electoral system works, and numerous articles, books, and documentaries to choose from, including Wikipedia. How on Earth could I do better for you? Stoop to your level and just say “you’re clearly wrong?”
If I were a conspiratorial onlooker, I’d suspect you of being one of my alts to legitimize what I’m saying here.
Cheese and crackers. You just aren’t getting it. Alright well I don’t know how I can make it more clear. Have a good day all the best to you
Of course I’m not going to get it, your only source was effectively “trust me bro” in the face of hard evidence and materialist analysis from multiple people. All you’ve made clear is that it’s the “tankies” that actually seem to know what we are talking about. Have fun back at MeanwhileOnGrad, where bigots stalk leftist accounts for screengrabs.