It was a comment of what society should be rather than what it is. Ofcourse there are toxic jobs in todays capitalist system. Work that cause over production, that helps oil companies, washes brands, makes us more dependent on cars or cause mass dehumanization.
In an ideal society we dont have ICE officers. We dont have toxic work. We just have work depending on whats meeded.
Well, vibe coding isn’t working. That’s just letting the machine think for you.
However, even non specialized work is essential. Burger flippers, street cleaners, bus drivers, librarians… They may not have a career as long and specialized as a doctor’s, but they’re still essential people, and their work should be valued.
Librarian is a job requiring a masters degree. Library clerks don’t need formal training however. Bus drivers also require a CDL which I would argue also makes it skilled labor. I wouldn’t be surprised if street cleaners also need one.
But yes, many jobs are essential for our society that don’t require certifications, education, or formal training. Though I will say that some jobs are more necessary than others. There are both bullshit jobs and jobs where while the labor is real, the benefits of it to society are less than the value produced by it.
I think work that requires you to study and learn and experience for ages should be paid higher than work you can do without prior experience or know-how.
This is my stance. If you’re working full time you should get a living wage. If you’ve got more experience or have learned more specialized skills then you should get more on top of that baseline living wage. I think 3x is less than what I would set the cap as but when I say that I’m thinking of people with highly specific technical skills or medical professionals, not CEOs. 3x is a fine cap for them.
i mean i really believe that in general, but some people really do provide unique services. it’s hard to reconcile the two concepts especially because people are allowed their contradictions so whatever
I think if you decouple capital and earning from skill this “more or less valuable” thing sorts itself out. If I’m hungry, I’d rather have a farmer and a chef around. If I sprain my ankle, I’d rather have a doctor and a PT around. My needs of the moment are not what I always need. My abilities at this moment, are not what my abilities always will be. for example, if I sprain my ankle, I probably can’t help the farmer bring in the cattle, but I could help the doctor by setting up the autoclave for surgical tools.
I also feel like if my ability have a home and live in a community and not starve were separated from how my time is spent, I would get to choose both less specialized things and I would probably get to cycle through different things (and prevent burnout). I would adore a schedule that lets me do significant physical labor for 2-4 hours in the morning, child care 2 days a week, geriatric health care 2 days a week, barista another day or two, and creative endeavors the rest of the time. That’s not really a job that can or does exist these days and if I tried to cobble it together from part time work, lean staffing would never let it be regular enough to manage all of them without flaking out on someone.
Even Marx knew that’s just not true at all. And I’m not even talking about the usual ‘garbage collector vs doctor’ bullshit.
I’m talking fastfood worker vs cafeteria worker, where one is reheating some chemical wastes to poison people for corporate gains; whereas the other is serving cheap and nutritious food for his local community.
Person A and person B have to do the same exact task e.g. fix a car or whatever. It takes person A one hour to do the job. Person B is more skilled and experienced, and thus can do the exact same job in 30 minutes. Correct me if I’m wrong, but by your logic I understand that person A should be paid double of what person B is paid, because they gave double of their equally important time. One could argue that since it’s the same job being done, they should be paid the same. I would argue person B deserves even more pay for the exact same job that person A did, because they SAVED time. I agree time is valuable, thus doing a job faster is more valuable than doing the exact same job but slower.
Your ability to completely de-humanize janitorial work says so much about you. Heart transplants cannot happen unless someone sweeps the floor.
Every job is important. Every job matters. Someone working at McDonald’s matters to that surgeon who shows up at 2am after a 16 hour day and needs food.
Your ability to completely de-humanize janitorial work says so much about you.
cool strawman bro. Saying sweeping up dust is less important than saving a life is not saying “and you’re a worm if you ever sweep a floor”. I’ve had to sweep the floor at almost every job I’ve had, it was never as important as someone’s life.
I love how people tell on themselves by projecting their own prejudices and then get mad at the person they did it at, as though they had anything to do with the process
“ah but what if I change the example you used to a different example”
ok man have fun playing with your strawmen. Sweeping the floor of a warehouse is still not equally as important as life saving medical work. People who detail cars are not as important to society as paramedics.
There’s no straw man, but. I’m not inventing a narrative. Every job is important.
Just because you don’t think people who sweep floors matters to society doesn’t change my opinion.
Sweeping the floor of a warehouse is still not equally as important as life saving medical work
That warehouse could contain medical supplies. They could contain parts to build trucks that will transport medical supplies. That warehouse could contain equipment to build the medical devices that the surgeon could use.
You’re just someone who deems worth based on what they do in completion, not that work and society all works together as a giant organism. And to look down at anyone who does manual labour as less than someone who saves lives is extremely sad. You should be ashamed.
You wouldn’t sweep an OR you would mop or squeegee. Kinda like the example I used was ‘sweeping a floor’ and not your straw example of ‘sanitizing a surgical theater.’
You are not required to judge the value of work based on its output. While some types of work may produce output that is relatively more beneficial to society than is other work, a society can choose to believe that the value of the work lies in the effort rather than the output. From each according to their ability, to each according to their need. This is the core tenet of Marxism. It’s entirely a matter of which paradigm you choose to accept. There is no right answer to this question, only reflections of what you value.
society can choose to believe that the value of the work lies in the effort rather than the output
Beliefs won’t feed you. Raw output won’t feed you either. What feeds you is an output of things society actually needs. There’s no reasonable way of gathering information of what every single member of society needs, worse some members will lie to get more resources than they should. That approach has fundamentally unsolvable problems
The problems you list are solvable, but you have apparently lacked the intellectual curiosity to investigate how they can be solved. I won’t debate the basic tenets of Marxism with you because it will take too much time and effort, and I have no way to know if you’re genuinely interested or just another troll. But you can find numerous reading lists here if you want to understand.
The problems they listed are unsolvable, but you have apparently lacked the intellectual curiosity to investigate why the supposed solutions would not actually work. I won’t debate the basics of the impracticability of Marxism in large and interconnected societies with you because it will take too much time and effort, and I have no way to know if you’re genuinely interested or just another troll.
No work is less valuable than others.
all work is equal
What about ICE?
It was a comment of what society should be rather than what it is. Ofcourse there are toxic jobs in todays capitalist system. Work that cause over production, that helps oil companies, washes brands, makes us more dependent on cars or cause mass dehumanization.
In an ideal society we dont have ICE officers. We dont have toxic work. We just have work depending on whats meeded.
I show the same respect to any workers, but, some work is much less specialized.
I wouldn’t say a vibe coder is as valuable as a software developer as an example
Also, influencers… Generally not useful at all, and are just trying to score freebies…
Entertainers are valuable and skilled workers. They don’t want to have to advertise to make ends meet, that’s just how our economy is right now.
I consider influencers to be part of the advertisement industry.
Well, vibe coding isn’t working. That’s just letting the machine think for you.
However, even non specialized work is essential. Burger flippers, street cleaners, bus drivers, librarians… They may not have a career as long and specialized as a doctor’s, but they’re still essential people, and their work should be valued.
Librarian is a job requiring a masters degree. Library clerks don’t need formal training however. Bus drivers also require a CDL which I would argue also makes it skilled labor. I wouldn’t be surprised if street cleaners also need one.
But yes, many jobs are essential for our society that don’t require certifications, education, or formal training. Though I will say that some jobs are more necessary than others. There are both bullshit jobs and jobs where while the labor is real, the benefits of it to society are less than the value produced by it.
What about people who manufacture cigarettes?
Or gambling companies?
I can think of many jobs society can safely get rid of
The guy flipping burgers is essential and people need to eat.
“News reporters” at sky news… not essential
I think work that requires you to study and learn and experience for ages should be paid higher than work you can do without prior experience or know-how.
But you know, reasonably higher. Like 3x at most.
I don’t care much about pay differences, as long as everybody can afford to live comfortably and nobody can afford to buy politicians.
Fair enough
This is my stance. If you’re working full time you should get a living wage. If you’ve got more experience or have learned more specialized skills then you should get more on top of that baseline living wage. I think 3x is less than what I would set the cap as but when I say that I’m thinking of people with highly specific technical skills or medical professionals, not CEOs. 3x is a fine cap for them.
i mean i really believe that in general, but some people really do provide unique services. it’s hard to reconcile the two concepts especially because people are allowed their contradictions so whatever
I think if you decouple capital and earning from skill this “more or less valuable” thing sorts itself out. If I’m hungry, I’d rather have a farmer and a chef around. If I sprain my ankle, I’d rather have a doctor and a PT around. My needs of the moment are not what I always need. My abilities at this moment, are not what my abilities always will be. for example, if I sprain my ankle, I probably can’t help the farmer bring in the cattle, but I could help the doctor by setting up the autoclave for surgical tools.
I also feel like if my ability have a home and live in a community and not starve were separated from how my time is spent, I would get to choose both less specialized things and I would probably get to cycle through different things (and prevent burnout). I would adore a schedule that lets me do significant physical labor for 2-4 hours in the morning, child care 2 days a week, geriatric health care 2 days a week, barista another day or two, and creative endeavors the rest of the time. That’s not really a job that can or does exist these days and if I tried to cobble it together from part time work, lean staffing would never let it be regular enough to manage all of them without flaking out on someone.
Even Marx knew that’s just not true at all. And I’m not even talking about the usual ‘garbage collector vs doctor’ bullshit.
I’m talking fastfood worker vs cafeteria worker, where one is reheating some chemical wastes to poison people for corporate gains; whereas the other is serving cheap and nutritious food for his local community.
I think both of those examples are wild generalizations.
Not as much as the original claim, so I’m fine with that
It isn’t.
It is. It’s TIME.
One hour of your life isn’t more precious than one hour of mine.
Person A and person B have to do the same exact task e.g. fix a car or whatever. It takes person A one hour to do the job. Person B is more skilled and experienced, and thus can do the exact same job in 30 minutes. Correct me if I’m wrong, but by your logic I understand that person A should be paid double of what person B is paid, because they gave double of their equally important time. One could argue that since it’s the same job being done, they should be paid the same. I would argue person B deserves even more pay for the exact same job that person A did, because they SAVED time. I agree time is valuable, thus doing a job faster is more valuable than doing the exact same job but slower.
What work isn’t equal to others?
Sweeping the floor is not equal to doing a heart transplant, stop getting lost in platitudes and get a grip.
Your ability to completely de-humanize janitorial work says so much about you. Heart transplants cannot happen unless someone sweeps the floor.
Every job is important. Every job matters. Someone working at McDonald’s matters to that surgeon who shows up at 2am after a 16 hour day and needs food.
cool strawman bro. Saying sweeping up dust is less important than saving a life is not saying “and you’re a worm if you ever sweep a floor”. I’ve had to sweep the floor at almost every job I’ve had, it was never as important as someone’s life.
I love how people tell on themselves by projecting their own prejudices and then get mad at the person they did it at, as though they had anything to do with the process
I have a prejudice that I believe every job is important and every job is worth doing? And every job is required for other jobs to succeed?
When the fuck did I find myself back on reddit?
It could never have happened without someone cleaning the operating room.
Serious question. Are you intentionally being dense? Or just come by it accindently?
“ah but what if I change the example you used to a different example”
ok man have fun playing with your strawmen. Sweeping the floor of a warehouse is still not equally as important as life saving medical work. People who detail cars are not as important to society as paramedics.
There’s no straw man, but. I’m not inventing a narrative. Every job is important.
Just because you don’t think people who sweep floors matters to society doesn’t change my opinion.
That warehouse could contain medical supplies. They could contain parts to build trucks that will transport medical supplies. That warehouse could contain equipment to build the medical devices that the surgeon could use.
You’re just someone who deems worth based on what they do in completion, not that work and society all works together as a giant organism. And to look down at anyone who does manual labour as less than someone who saves lives is extremely sad. You should be ashamed.
Noone’s gonna fucking die if you miss a spot when sweeping
In a hospital surgical room? Yeah they can.
Here’s hoping you’re just trolling, because I wouldn’t want to insult a lobotomite
You wouldn’t sweep an OR you would mop or squeegee. Kinda like the example I used was ‘sweeping a floor’ and not your straw example of ‘sanitizing a surgical theater.’
C suite work for example is completely useless.
The unnecessary one.
You are not required to judge the value of work based on its output. While some types of work may produce output that is relatively more beneficial to society than is other work, a society can choose to believe that the value of the work lies in the effort rather than the output. From each according to their ability, to each according to their need. This is the core tenet of Marxism. It’s entirely a matter of which paradigm you choose to accept. There is no right answer to this question, only reflections of what you value.
Beliefs won’t feed you. Raw output won’t feed you either. What feeds you is an output of things society actually needs. There’s no reasonable way of gathering information of what every single member of society needs, worse some members will lie to get more resources than they should. That approach has fundamentally unsolvable problems
The problems you list are solvable, but you have apparently lacked the intellectual curiosity to investigate how they can be solved. I won’t debate the basic tenets of Marxism with you because it will take too much time and effort, and I have no way to know if you’re genuinely interested or just another troll. But you can find numerous reading lists here if you want to understand.
The problems they listed are unsolvable, but you have apparently lacked the intellectual curiosity to investigate why the supposed solutions would not actually work. I won’t debate the basics of the impracticability of Marxism in large and interconnected societies with you because it will take too much time and effort, and I have no way to know if you’re genuinely interested or just another troll.
See, others can do it too ;)
They aren’t. Every solution proposed by Marxists is fatally flawed.
Hell yeah! Guard labor is real labor! FOP unions are real unions! Solidarity with the guys who tear gas you!